Great video about masculinity, dating advice, and the virtue of kindness

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Aug 12, 2022.

  1. USER_ERROR

    USER_ERROR Fapstronaut

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    That article was really about races, i have been looking into it a bit and personally i think it is a poor arguments as far as the most disadvantaged demographic being working class men and not women. Firstly it is about their children's academic performance at school not working class men or women themselves and even then it merely talk about the
    university participation rates. While it shows that across the board girls are more likely to apply for college they also state "Separate data from the Department for Education shows that white school-leavers are now the least likely to go to highly selective universities" no mention wether this is due to rejection or lack of application, the same is also true for boys & girls university's participation rates.

    What this article doesn't say and i have had to look elsewhere is that white working class boys underperform every other demographic academically. There doesn't seem to be a consensus as to the reason why, i don't think it is related to poverty or crime as even other "disadvantaged" group outperform them, it could be that non-white and girls receive special treatment in schools or perhaps a lack of attention for poor white boys.

    This article here talk about the high rejection rate of poor whites students in areas of low participation the only mention about gender being "Of the higher education providers who responded to a survey by Neon, fewer than 40% were doing outreach work specifically with white males and fewer than 12% with white females from low-participation backgrounds."

    From what i have been reading there seem to be little interest among those poor white for further education, most it would seems prefer to take an apprenticeship or a quick but insecure job so they don't have to move away from home and family with no guarantee of a good job at the end. There is something similar to this among hispanic in the US. And the article originally posted ended with "The gender divide in attitudes to university is revealed in new research by City & Guilds, which offers vocational qualifications. It found that 40 per cent of young people were considering university compared with 35 per cent this time last year. This was the case for 47 per cent of girls and 31 per cent of boys this year."

    If you want to read more on this here are some other articles
    Also lol, the queen is not the most powerful, she has immunity like all the royal family but she is largely a figure head, it is like a modern shogunate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
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  2. Kim Wexler

    Kim Wexler Fapstronaut

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    In the interests of not annoying OP further (sorry if I have by engaging even when I said I wouldn't) I'm not gonna reply to anything not related to the actual topic of the thread. Honestly I'm in agreement with her that this is becoming annoying now.

    So, to return to the topic somewhat. What male character do you guys like? That you think are genuinely good, strong characters?
     
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  3. she-dernatinus

    she-dernatinus Fapstronaut

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    Ok dude, have it your way.
     
  4. MrPriest

    MrPriest Fapstronaut

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    No rush whatsoever, just would like to hear what you people think, to continue with the point of the thread and carry on with a constructive discussion that I find interesting.
     
  5. MrPriest

    MrPriest Fapstronaut

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    Maximus Decimus Meridious - Gladiator
    Uncle Iroh - ATLA
    Qui-Gon Jinn - Star Wars
    Andy dufresne - Shawshank Redemption
    Mr Kimble - Kindergarten cop

    There is probably more but those are the first bunch that came to my head.
     
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  6. Ooo, that's a great question! I'll separate my answers by numbers, but these are in no particular order.

    1. In one of her videos, Galatea mentions Rick Grimes from The Walking Dead being a great male character, and I laughed when she said that because I have always said that he is, like, the perfect picture of a really good, strong, masculine character.

    He's a great leader, he's self-sacrificing, he puts his family first, he's a good dad and husband, and he's strong and tough but also compassionate and able to show his emotions.

    One of my favorite scenes ever in that show is when
    Maggie and Carl come out of the prison with the baby, and Rick realizes Lori is dead. His reaction always gets me in tears. The way he looks at his son, knowing that he just had to watch his mother die and that he is going to have to grow up without her now, and the way he collapses on the ground, weeping.
    I absolutely love that scene, because it shows that even really, really strong, masculine men have deep emotions and can be broken and weep and be human.

    2. One of my favorite characters of all time is the Doctor, from Doctor who. I think I love him so much mostly because he is so kind. He's also strong, extremely intelligent, and very capable, but it's the fact that he uses all of that to help others and to fight for justice that makes him so special. And not even just in the big things. He's almost close to an all-knowing being, because of how old he is and how much of the universe he's seen, and yet he still gets genuinely excited to simply help a lonely, neglected little girl have an adventure and see the stars.

    Honestly, there are so many moments in Doctor Who that my husband and I have both said we feel like the Doctor is kind of a good representation of God in a lot of ways. He's very loving and cares deeply for humans, even though he isn't one and his race could easily be seen as more valuable than the human race, and I just think he has a great heart. Of course he also has his negative moments, and I love those too, because it's great character development. That is, until the writing went to crap when the 12th Doctor came around.

    3. I'm currently re-watching How I Met Your Mother, and I just absolutely love Marshall. He's a fantastic husband and a great friend. He's the kind of person you can always depend on and go to when you're in need. Again, I think the main thing about him that sticks out to me is his kindness.

    He's a little more... o guess you could say "soft" than the other examples here. He's not like some "alpha male" type character, but I think he's a great role model for men in a lot of ways. Of course he also has flaws, because every character (well, every well written character) does.

    4. Killian Jones, from Once Upon a Time, is a great one. He's a perfect example of the type of guy a lot of people would see and say "see, women just want bad boys." But the thing is, he may be a "bad boy" archetype, and he certainly has a bit of a misogynistic past, but he's really not a bad boy at all... he is, yet again (I'm seeing a theme here), incredibly kind.

    He's great with Emma's son, he always respects her boundaries, he's patient with her and not judgemental about her flaws, he's incredibly loyal and faithful to her, and he does live by a certain code of honor, which we see especially clearly when we get more information about his past, before he became Captain Hook.

    He has more flaws than the other men on this list, but they are things in his past that he overcomes and he becomes a better person for them. Because that show is absolutely brilliant at giving its characters great redemption arcs.

    5. The last one I'll mention for now is Chuck, from the show Chuck. What do you think I'm gonna say about him?

    Lol that's right, he's extremely kind. He's definitely much more gentle and probably less traditionally masculine than some of the other men here, but he still has the qualities that I think are wonderful in a man. And the ones that are less desirable, like him not being particularly driven or having a plan for his life, are actually sort of the character flaws that he overcomes and grows in throughout the show.

    Also, while he might not on the surface seem like a particularly strong guy, he actually DOES challenge Sarah quite a lot. He's patient with her, but he also stands his ground at times when she is being unfair or unreasonable, and he challenges her to open up to him. He's not just a puppy dog fawning over her and willing to take whatever she will give him.

    I love that show partially because it's sort of all about Chuck just being a really GOOD guy. That's the whole reason Sarah falls for him, because he is good and kind and self-sacrficing and puts others above himself. And in her world, that's unheard of. And they challenge each other, as he challenges her to soften and let herself feel and care, and later on as he starts to lose himself a bit in the callousness of the spy world, she reminds him of who he is and the things she loved about him that she doesn't want him to lose sight of.

    All in all, just a fantastic show. Oh, and a bonus is Chuck's relationship with his best friend Morgan. I absolutely LOVE shows that give us good male/male friendships, and Chuck and Morgan are my absolute favorite example of that.

    Couple honorable mentions:
    - Gus from Psych: kind, fearful at times but still strong when he needs to be, responsible and stable

    - Peter and Hiro from Heroes: both strong men who stand up for what's right and choose to sacrifice themselves for the good of the world, when they need to. That show also has lots of fantastic examples of men having deep, meaningful relationships with other men. I was really excited to see how many times Peter and his brother say "I love you" to each other. I feel like we so rarely see that between two heterosexual men on screen.

    - Winston from New Girl. Underrated character. So freaking kind, unapologetically himself, and courageous to go after his dreams even when people didn't believe in him. People think Jess is the glue that holds that group together, but I think it's Winston.

    - Adrian from the Bloodlines series (book series by Richelle Mead). Another "bad boy" who isn't really a bad boy. He has some significant flaws, for sure, but he's still kind and very, very respectful of Sydney and her boundaries, even when other characters are dismissing her boundaries as being silly. Heck, even when her boundaries are borderline bigoted, because they are rooted in her family's racism against vampires, he still respects her and knows exactly where the line is, and wouldn't dare cross it until she is ready.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2022
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  7. Oh, I forgot an important one: Goofy.

    Yes, you read that right.

    Goofy is a fantastic character. He's a single dad who would do anything for his son. I've always loved A Goofy Movie, and I think it's partially because I have a really great relationship with my dad, and it's a rare movie that focuses solely on that fatherly bond. I feel like a lot of kids movies are more focused on mothers and the importance of that relationship, but that movie is all about a dad and his son, and I think Goofy is just a great man.
     
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  8. IR254

    IR254 Fapstronaut

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    Not really a character as in movie character, but one that always comes to my mind must be Marcus Aurelius. He was the Emperor of Rome and his word was law. Whatever he wanted, he could get and nobody could stop him. And yet - under these incredibly tempting circumstances - Marcus Aurelius behaved himself well for 19 long years and tried to be a good Emperor, who cares about his people and tries to be a good person. He was arguably the best Emperor Rome has ever seen and he is probably one of the only exceptions to Lord Acton's generalisation that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Ask yourself, if you could withstand temptation of that magnitude for 19 years without disgracing yourselfs. I think I have to admit, that I could not and that Marcus Aurelius was in this regard a better man than I am. I have great admiration for him.
     
  9. I think this is a perfect highlight of what Galatea said about niceness sometimes being weak and kindness requiring strength.

    I think about this one scene, shortly after the Doctor regenerated into the 10th, David Tennant. He's on a ship high in the atmosphere, fighting these bad aliens who are trying to attack earth, and he's also still trying to figure out who this new version of himself is going to be.

    He gives the bad guys ample opportunity to surrender, to leave, to not attack earth. And if I'm remembering the scene correctly, they seem like they are going to surrender. He fights one of them in a duel and wins (not by killing the person, mind you), and they agree that they will leave. All throughout the duel, the Doctor is talking about what kind of a man he will be with this new regeneration. But then the bad guy attacks again, while his back is turned, and the Doctor presses a button on the ship that makes the man fall over the side, to his death.

    He ends the scene by saying "No second chances. I'm that sort of a man." And it's almost a little bit sinister and harsh sounding, but it's also the exact right thing to have done to protect earth and to take a stand and say no, you will not attack these people if I have anything to say about it.

    The Doctor has many moments like this. He's very kind and compassionate, but he can also be fierce and hard and willing to make the tough choices and do what needs to be done to protect others. He has a bit of a constant battle within, between being a warrior and being a doctor. But I think that's what makes him such a good man. Neither of those sides of himself are bad and need to be eradicated, but also neither of them need to completely overtake the other.
     
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  10. MrPriest

    MrPriest Fapstronaut

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    @TakingTheSteps oh my, how didn't I mention Tennant's Doctor on my small list, he is surely a great example indeed.

    This scene in particular has stucked with me over the years.
     
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  11. That's one of the best episodes. It's heartbreaking but so wonderful!
     
  12. NothingMoreNothingLess

    NothingMoreNothingLess Fapstronaut

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    Optimus Prime
    Tony Stark
    Goku
    Batman
    James Bond

    I don't think there is a true strongest male character, since many characters always have hardships that they need to overcome. For example, Optimus is too nice and gives the Decepticons a second-chance many times. Tony Stark had to deal with anxiety and trauma which made him mess things up for himself and his girlfriend. Goku doesn't kill his villain's like Optimus. Batman, also does not kill his victims which gave him great perils as a result. James Bond's weakness is being seduced easily by attractive women. I noticed that 3 of the 5 do not kill their villains unless direly needed. However, all 5 of them are protective of their family and morals. They also never back down and think of ways to overcome a challenge.
     
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  13. USER_ERROR

    USER_ERROR Fapstronaut

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    He couldn't just do whatever he wanted though, he was the first emperor to have weakened his office by sharing it with another, seemingly under no compulsion. It was perhaps his(and the empire) luck that his co-emperor died without any issue or before getting too ambitious. I have read his meditation and he indeed seem like a very tempered and good man but i don't think that you can say he was the best roman emperor, not only did he leave the empire under the hands of commodus, his rule was filled with war & revolt within roman territory itself. I think he is a bit overrated, though he did a good job of keeping the empire together even if he did not really bring anything new.
    Objectively, the best roman emperor since augustus would probably be trajan.

    Another guy that withstood temptation is gorbachev, he is the only russian ruler to have willingly reduced his power and almost single handedly ended the cold war, he is vilified in russia from what i've read.
     
  14. IR254

    IR254 Fapstronaut

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    First of all, it was not only without compulsion. Marcus Aurelius actively refused to take the throne unless his brother would become emperor with him out of great respect for Antonius Pius, their (adoptive) father. And secondly, none of this changes anything about the fact, that he was still an absolute ruler and his word was law, since Verus pretty much obeyed Marcus anyways and everybody knew who the emperor with authority was. Furthermore, when it comes to human life (not politics) he could absolutely do whatever he wanted. He could get drunk and stay drunk until he dies, he could chop everybodys head off if he wanted, he could collect all the money in the world, he could have sex with anyone he wanted under any cirumcstances and much, much more. That's what I was talking about. I don't care about Roman politics. But when it comes to the temptations life has to offer, Aurelius has the same temptations everyone has, only magnified 1000-fold. To behave yourself as well as Aurelius did in those cirumstances is pretty much unheard of.

    Hence the "arguably" in my post. Again, I'm not really interested in Roman politics but rather in the person of Marcus Aurelius.
     
  15. Semtex

    Semtex Fapstronaut

    Marcus was great but there were many other excellent emperors and dictators. He mucked things up terribly by selecting his biological idiot of a son as his successor instead of a competent adopted son like his predecessors did.

    Oh and the spot for the best emperor is taken as decided by the Senate itself:
    Traianus_Glyptothek_Munich_72 (1).jpg

    Maybe because he turned Russia from world power #2 to an irrelevant shithole.
     
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  16. Kim Wexler

    Kim Wexler Fapstronaut

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    Qui-Gon is a good pick. I wish I could remember the name of the guy who said it, (I think it was the guy who wrote Clone Wars?) but I love the headcanon that Qui-Gon's death was crucial to Anakin's fall. If Qui-Gon was alive when Anakin was being trained, he would have acted as the mediator between Palpatine's grooming and the other Jedi's cold attitude, and Anakin would have grown up much more well-adjusted.

    I've only seen two out of all of these, The Walking Dead and Doctor Who. Rick Grimes is an interesting example because while he definitely is at the start, the more the show goes on the worse he gets. The part where he orchestrates a raid on an enemy base on the word of the world's most untrustworthy man (Gregory) and slaughters dozens while they sleep was not only ridiculous, but also savage in a way that defiled pretty much everyone involved in the scene except for Glenn, the only one to show remorse. I can buy Rick biting the guy's ear off and then gutting him, because Carl was in danger, but going Terminator on people you don't even know? Rick deserved what happened to him after that lmao, he brought it on himself.

    The Doctor is a great pick. My major criticism of his characterization recently is the need to, in my honest opinion, debase them by having them be romantically and sexually attracted to the companions. I hate that I can't say this to most people without being called homophobic (with both doctor and potential love interest being women now) but I had this attitude when it was Ten and Rose. I much prefer the love the Doctor has with his friends to be intense platonic love. Very few male/female relationships do that, and even fewer do it well.

    Good historical pick.

    The Christmas Invasion is the episode. I think that's a good example of his character but I think that...

    ...this is the best one for Ten. A great story overall. They don't make them like they used to.

    Interesting picks. Out of comic book characters, I'm surprised nobody has said Superman. We see in Superman VS The Elite what he could do if he stopped sticking to his morals (and even then he's holding back) and his strength of character is his most defining trait and his greatest superpower. This is why I don't like all the "what if superman was evil lol" stories, like I get they are alternate timelines or whatever but the whole point of Superman is you CAN'T break him. That's what makes him interesting in the hands of competent writers.
     
  17. USER_ERROR

    USER_ERROR Fapstronaut

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    Personally i doubt it was unheard of for an absolute autocrat to behave themselves as he did, he could indeed stay drunk all he want or steal from his own treasury and chop everybody's head off or at least he could do all that as long as he doesn't piss off his praetorian guards, his governors and his army as the emperor derive his power solely from his wealth and ability to maintain the loyalty of his armed forces, being too tyrannical with his population would make him even more dependent on them.
    And there are others emperors like caligula or his own son who also did whatever they wanted and paid the price for it.
    But anyways he would certainly have heard of cyrius the great who had as much power as him or even just previous roman emperors like trajan, pius or augustus himeself who did not do any of those things.
    But what are your arguments for him being "the best Emperor Rome has ever seen"? Had you said one of the best i would not have disputed it, but simply not abusing your powers or "sharing" it with a relative doesn't make you a good emperor, a good person perhaps. But even so he was still a roman of his time, a people that cheerfully put their fellow men and women into an arena and watch them kill each other for their pleasure and possibly the greatest slaveholders of antiquity behind perhaps sparta. There is no indication that he found either slavery or gladiatorial combat immoral and as you said he was an absolute ruler and did absolutely nothing about it.
    Compare that to others emperor who did not abuse their powers but in addition also brought a bunch of social and economic reforms to the empire.
     
  18. Yeah, I stopped watching that show a while ago because the writing was getting awful. And yeah, I agree they started to ruin Rick's character. Every character, honestly.

    I haven't seen the female doctor at all, and probably never will. I loved Rose and Ten together, but I also really love the platonic stuff as well. I especially loved Donna (one of my favorite companions) because she was the first one of the new reboot that didn't have any romantic interest at all in the Doctor. I loved that.

    One of my favorite "companions," if he counts as that, who is actually also a great example of a good male character, is Wilf. His friendship with the Doctor is my absolute favorite. I love how they bond as old men who have been through war. He brings out a different side of the Doctor, and it's also nice to see someone appreciate the Doctor who is obviously strictly platonic.

    Oh yeah, for sure. Human Nature is one of the best episodes (2 episodes, but still) of the whole series in my opinion.

    I'm watching Smallville right now. I didn't think of Clark at first. I think he's great in a lot of ways, but at least in this show, he's also been driving me absolutely nuts by not learning anything at all from his past mistakes and making the exact same mistakes in the future, that are actively harming the person he loves.

    It's just poor writing though, imo, because it doesn't even really seem in character for Clark. The writers are just always declaring that he can't possibly tell the woman he loves about his true identity, for... reasons, even though he had that exact same attitude in his previous relationship and it's the thing that completely destroyed their relationship and drove her into the arms of his greatest enemy. And then that exact same thing happens again in his next relationship. It's like the writers just don't want her to know the truth yet, so they pretend that it's somehow wise of him not to tell her, when it's actually incredibly stupid and constantly puts her in more danger than she would be in if she knew.

    Clark's character in this show is also sometimes pretty quick to anger and not giving his friends the benefit of the doubt, which is a bit annoying.

    I love Smallville, and it's the first thing I ever saw that actually made me like Superman at all. But it definitely has its flaws too.

    I'm not sure about other Superman stories. I've seen a lot of the newer DC movies, but I didn't really like them so idk. Although I think Henry Cavill is absolutely perfect in that role.

    Of all the Superhero characters, I think Captain America is my favorite example of a really good man.
     
  19. This is similar to how me and my family feel about Superman, especially Clark. I never liked him as a character generally, I personally find him very boring. To me, there's nothing interesting about an invincible or near invincible super good guy, minus Smallville's really bad habit at having Kryptonite being present at the worst time, something Clark could've easily prevented by just using his X-ray vision to take a quick scan of rooms he enters to check for Kryptonite. Smallville did not fix my view of Superman and then what you mentioned about Clark was the same for me, a lot of Clark's problems could've been prevented if he just... wasn't an idiot. I even remember reading that his actor hated his own character, he would pace around the set, silently ranting on how much of an idiot his character was.

    Unless a movie comes out that tops it, which I doubt, Winter Soldier will forever remain my favorite superhero movie. But my favorite hero is probably Spider-Man. I liked the Marvel movies, especially the first one, I grew up playing numerous games with him in it, and I just really like the character.
     
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  20. I really love Spiderman too. He's always been one of my favs. Cap is just more of a good masculine "role model," to me, but if we're just talking favs, I have other favs too.

    And yeah, I've always kind of disliked Superman because he's too perfect and boring. I loveeee Smallville, but mostly because I really adore Michael Rosenbaum as Lex Luthor. He was my favorite character, and I was kind of obsessed with him and Lana Lang together. In fact, their relationship is what sparked the inspiration for an entire trilogy of romance novels I've written. lol
     
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