Their definition of manhood was it being OK for older men to have sex with young boys. That isn't "unusual" it's disgusting.
We are talking about a thousands years old civilization alien to most social progress so obviously they are not going to be perfect; I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that sexual orientation has nothing whatsoever to do with manliness as many people with homophobic tendency on this site seem to believe or the ones that I interacted with anyways. To stay on topic as regarding this thread anyone with a modicum of historical knowledge is aware of the fact that like antique Greece, many of the most successful (and warlike) cultures of the past (which ironically most modern western men on this very site think of as the golden age of mankind or western civilization) tough nothing of a good display of public emotions yet just like them(Ancient Greeks) they also produced some of the best warriors of their time, certainly no less *manly* than anyone before or since.As for morality it is a fickle thing what is or isn't moral change all the time.
do i believe that sexual orientation has nothing to do with manliness or that people with homophobic tendency think it does? if its the former then just looking at ancient greeks, samourai and even to some degree rome then yeah, it has nothing to do with manliness.
Manliness has to do with being a man right? Last time I checked men have sex with women, and women have sex with men. Besides that, do you think your average gay many who uses a soft girl voice is portraying manliness?
they don't actually, there are some studies on the subject and homosexuals for the most part are strongly anti-effeminate. And like i said you just have to look at the ancients greeks or the samourais they were in many ways more manly(whatever that means) than modern folks.
They don’t actually because there are some studies? I’m starting to question your intelligence. Why the fuck would I look at ancient Greeks? I live in 2021.
The average gay man do not use a soft girl voice or act in an effeminate way that is just a stereotype and it is confirmed by studies(the fact that it is a stereotype if you didn't get that) on the subject what is so difficult to understand about that? I pointed ancient greece because they made up a good chunk of the population and you can see more clearly see how they impacted the society as opposed to today where they are just a minority. You obviously do not know many gay/bi if any and likely live in a bubble, speaking from experience myself i had a childhood steeped in violence despite the fact that i enjoy watching transwoman porn and do not feel any less manly than anyone else, certainly no one has ever said it to my face nor will they ever. A gay man can be just as macho and violent(and isn't that the manliest thing?) than a straight man. Plus you don't see me insulting your intelligence when you write shit like "Manliness has to do with being a man right? Last time I checked men have sex with women, and women have sex with men.", i mean what if you are abstinent or asexual do that mean you are unmanly? you can just browse the abstinence section and find out for yourself. Edit: People on this site have enough shit to deal with in their life without some lowlife trying to show everyone how big his dick is by constantly insulting their intelligence as you repeatedly do, if we are so stupid then you are much more stupid to engage in conversation with us in the first place, go and find a better use of your time.
Good review of how my ideas and yours vary lol.. Wow, I really wrote that in 2020? Well that being the case - I don't have a lot more to add, no. They are vague for a reason. We are men, most of us at least, and we can define the intricacies of each of those categories how we would like. Painting the broader picture was my goal. I would certainly say *calm is key, and some sort of *drive in your life is absolutely key. I read a book recently that said something along the lines of "we are the pilots of our lives, not the passengers". Heck, in light of this thread though, strength and boldness are what most people are missing in their definition. What I take offence to most is feminists calling any part of masculinity toxic. How dare they say something like that? There are groups of people that like to change the meaning of words and they live a sad life that I do not envy.
Saying toxic masculinity is toxic is not the same as saying masculinity is toxic. I don’t think “most” feminists are saying that “any” part of masculinity is toxic. I think that’s a caricature
Read it again like this maybe. "The biggest thing I take offence to is: _____" etc And yes they do, there's a reason why the words toxic and masculinity go together in people's heads. I blame them until someone can define it better. Its offensive to me and it damages society. It does this though mostly due to the lack of defense, not the strength of the offense.
The issue is a lot of people are trying to twist this so traits seen as traditionally masculine and positive are instead being seen as negative. Meanwhile, these same traits are being praised when women exhibit them. Case in point, being a strong-willed and dominant man makes you a bully or an asshole, but acting that way as a woman makes you a girlboss. I refer back to what I said pages ago - women don't get to decide what masculinity is, or what aspects of it are positive or negative, men do. Women ultimately have no idea about the male experience just as men have no idea of the female experience. I agree wholeheartedly with MrBlue (Christian Bale avatars rise up) in that trying to define huge parts of masculinity as "toxic" is dangerous. Men should be allowed to act like traditional men if they want to. By the same virtue, if a woman wishes to act in a traditionally female manner, they should also not be shamed for it (which is a thing that happens, God forbid a woman says she wants to be a housewife in certain circles.)
This is definitely an area where I need to tread lightly, but I have this condition called autogynephilia in which I feel arousal when imagining myself feminized or doing stereotypically feminine things. However, it usually attacks me when I'm feeling down, isolated, and especially when I'm not eating well. For me, a person who was born male and is a male, feminization is linked to getting fatter and being depressed. B/c those are the factors that cause me to start wanting to feel feminine. So, in my opinion becoming "feminized" does prevent me from reaching my full potential as a person. In fact, middle-age males often have beer bellies and large asses. This is due partially to their food intake, but can't you see that they are "feminized" relative to their youth? I'd venture to say they have higher estrogen levels than when they were in their twenties.
I've been thinking. There's traits, positive, negative, and neutral, associated with the male sex. I suppose we could technically call these "masculine traits," but that's not what I, or most men, think about when we talk about being a man or a "real" man. We're talking about ideal traits. Furthermore, when we talk about what is manly, we're not automatically contrasting that to women. I've indicated earlier, sometimes you're a man, and not a boy, or a mouse, or a creep, or any number of other things that are not ideal. When we attribute a positive trait toward being masculine, we're not saying femininity is the opposite. (Ideal) men are strong. That doesn't mean women are weak. That doesn't mean ideal women are weak. All it means is, ideal men are strong. There's a lot of ways to be a man. I don't go for the loud, aggressive brodude type of masculinity, but there's lots of ways to be that type of man and not fall into being the boneheaded, asshole, less-than-ideal man. I'd say a man, a real one, can perform athletically. He can run a fast mile or pull his weight and then some, because if a situation arises where something physical needs to be accomplished, he can fill that role. There are some amputees, though, there's guys who, for various health reasons, can't athletically perform. They can still be men, because being an ideal man is about a collection of traits, skills, disciplines, and attitudes, not a comprehensive checklist. We can say, for example, that a man is well-educated and well-dressed. Some men have more education than fashion sense, though, and vice versa, and they can both be men. We use the lists as a way of objectively analyzing if we are the kind of person we want to be, and other men are the kind of people we want to associate with, but we usually recognize true masculinity when we see it. I further think ideal men and ideal women share a lot of traits, but I am extremely reluctant to advocate for calling those traits gender neutral, because they manifest in very different ways. There are ways to be compassionate, a trait many would associate with femininity, like a man. There's ways to be aggressive and take no sh!t as a woman. I see most branches of feminism claiming they want equal rights, but to get there they use an ultra-simplistic grasp of the data. They operate as if we are not equal until we are equally represented in leadership roles, in athletics, in income etc. (but ignore suicides, work injury and death, homelessness, child custody, incarceration, etc.). They want to achieve this by changing the way everyone sees the sexes, and it seems to me they want to do that by culturally neutering men and turning them into figurative eunuchs, and masculinizing women. Devaluing their innate femininity. That, to me, is misogyny, and that oppressive move to make us the same cheapens all of us, and will eventually backfire anyway because there are true physiological differences that manifest in typical traits and behaviors.
This thread is a perfect example of what happens when people try to create a textbook definition of "masculinity" and "toxic masculinity": they can't see the forest for the trees. Discuss what 2 + 2 is long enough, and someone will eventually persuade you that it's not 4. The moment we challenge our identity is the moment we lose our compass. Even mathematics is based on axioms: reject them, and all the theorems based on those axioms lose validity. The difference is that, with math, challenging an axiom might generate another useful mathematical model, e.g. non-Euclidean geometries. With life, challenging the obvious nature of things is equivalent to burying your head in the sand: you'll get nothing out if it, and the world will still be there unchanged when you care to pull your head out of the hole. Now let's see how my preamble relates to the topic of this thread. I presume you've all had that moment when a man shows up to a social event and, little by little, all heads turn in his direction. The attendees murmur, girls giggle and glance furtively at him, guys start to gravitate towards him and soon the girls follow. It becomes obvious that women desire him and other men admire him. What is it? His looks? His clothes? His voice, smell, stance, demeanor? Some people can't describe it so they call it "an aura", but they all feel it. Whatever it is, people just know it when a masculine man is around. By trying to deconstruct and challenge what is effectively a complex amalgamation of traits that include unequal measures of confidence, social skills, aggressiveness and posturing, users in this thread are starting to cast doubt over a gender-based quality that has been honed through hundreds of thousands of years, part genes, part upbringing. One hundred odd years of feminism won't change that, despite the mass delusion that is being peddled 24/7 by the media. To attract the best partners, men must display masculinity. It is not a "should". It is a "must". Conditio sine qua non. The penalty for not doing so is relinquishing opportunities to reproduce with a quality partner, and be tossed out of the gene pool. Scary stuff. Serious stuff. So here are some rules to cut the crap and reclaim your identity: Do not engage feminists to try and justify yourself, or claim that "you're not like all other men": you owe them nothing and they won't stop until you have been brainwashed into a puddle of self-loathing and doubt. Their end goal is to turn you into a pliable shell of a man, to justify their demands for your resources and position as a way to atone for your and your (male) ancestors' crime: namely, having been born with a penis. Think pink quotas, think affirmative action. If they try to drag you into a debate, tell them that your views on this topic are "unconventional". Do NOT engage: there's no need for drama. Do not show vulnerability in front of other women. Reserve that to close male friends of yours. Despite claims to the contrary, women are disgusted by displays of vulnerability in men. All their pleas to show your "sensitive side" must be interpreted as a (likely unconscious) test: "Are you truly a dependable man or a soppy mess? Can I rely on you to be my rock when I feel scared, or will I have to babysit you?". Woe betide the man who cries on his girlfriend's shoulder - soon she will be his girlfriend no more. Remove toxic females from your social circles. Women who despise men are a bore, an energy drain and a time waste. Do yourself a favor and eject them from your life. Surround yourself with positive, fun, feminine women that love you as a person and as a man. Thank me later. Teach her to appreciate masculinity by withdrawing it. In radically different times, I would have told you to "be a gentleman". Nowadays the world has become full of entitled shrews, so I suggest a more proportionate approach. Does she appreciate gallantry? Be gallant. Does she snap at you when you offer to carry her bags? Let her carry them. In fact, give her an extra one. Oh, and don't open that jar of pickles when she asks you to. She's a strong, independent woman, remember? Stop making decision and let her plan the dates. When she (inevitably) complains, tell her that you've got plans and ideas, but you'll tell her what they are only if she asks. It's a fact of life that people value what they miss. If she cherishes masculinity, go ahead, be a gentleman. If she doesn't, show her what she is missing. If she persists, move on and let her be bitterly "empowered" on her own. Live as a masculine man, but beware cancel-culture. Some sad individuals will go the extra mile to try to dox you, cancel you and make your life hell on Earth. Men have lost their jobs for speaking basic truths; see James Damore and his Google memo. Live your life as a masculine man, but refuse to engage activists who try to enlist you as an "ally" and vet your social media profiles. Do not add men or women you don't know well as Facebook friends: one rogue SJW is enough to make your life worse. Keep your LinkedIn profile professional. Twitter is just a political battleground - do away with it. Instagram is a vanity fair - avoid like the plague. Feel free to disagree; I could not care less. I've laid down the five tenets I've lived by in the past three years, and they have served me well.
Good post. I too have enjoyed the thought exercise, yet felt we were going in circles. The 5 tenants you listed are pretty strong. Good for you. Also thanks for sharing. I intend to reclaim any loss of masculinity I may have lost thru propaganda and/or the porns. Hope others can too. PS. The part about letting her be "bitterly empowered" if the situation calls for it would be an advanced technique lol. At the end of the day you WILL be sh** tested, maybe by men and women, so expect as much.
All these elaborated dissertations and a question still remain unanswered; what makes all of you insist that masculinity is something beyond your body having the Y chromosome ?
