So far my triggers have definitely been stress, stress is the one I am absolutely sure is a trigger for me. However, I think I have been making positive changes to my life that make me feel less stressed or get my mind off things that make me stressed out in the first place. I don't know why but to me it is more than just a fear of rejection by women. I think my problem is I play it far too safe. If a woman has headphones on or earbuds in I won't talk to her because I don't want to disturb her. I don't flirt with women at work for obvious reasons. Each time I see a woman studying or reading a book as much as I want to talk to her and tell her she's pretty, I don't because I don't want to be creepy and interrupt her reading and studying. I could talk with women at the local gym but that won't work simply because we're both there to exercise and not to date and also I like the prison gym set up that I have in my basement. Perhaps this is just me overthinking and making excuses or Spoiler me trying to self-justify being a shy stupid sensitive sissy boy that is often "Clueless in the woman department" and is always getting butterflies and blushing the local waitresses are being "a little too friendly." and is more excited by the idea of being kissed and cuddled by his wife/girlfriend as opposed to wild sex escapades. Personally I could never answer this question of if porn is worse single or in relationships, I tried quitting porn for women, but that never worked for me. There needs to be a more deeper reason for quitting porn than just for women. I want to quit porn simply because I want something more meaningful in life and I am sick of having the habit of a fifteen year old boy. I am always sick of my sperm making a mess of things. I have sexual needs too but now I consider them more wants. I have come to the conclusion that struggling for me single is bad, but struggling with porn in relationships is far more worse for me. I honestly do not care about my own sexual pleasures any more what I care more about finding a purpose in life, upping the ante out of some skills, and once I have reached my goal of abstaining from porn and masturbation, I hope I can find a woman that can love me and enjoys having me in her life.
I agree with you. I think there is more to this than doing it for another person or be spouse. And I agree I'm in the same point in my life as well. Matthew 16:25 talks about this in a path to salvation. Though I think a non believer could also apply this verse to their lives as well. We must essentially lose ourselves (or our desires/temptation s) to save ourselves. As much as I know this is true, I've struggled performing it at times. But I am very proud of myself on how much I've improved. I'm confident if you continue your life this way you will find a companion who loves you and you'll be happy.
Whatever helps is useful. Empathy is also essential—seeing things from her perspective can help w/the relationship.
I definitely get this, though at least inside my own head it gets more difficult to be empathetic when you don't feel your partner is either. I know my wife and I both think this about each other for different reasons. My solution is to just make a conscious effort to end the pattern and spiral of resentment. The challenging times are when there is a regression, no different than a relapse of PMO there's a natural response to revert back to old behavior. We are working to get through this and I would say we are making some progress.
Interesting. I don't think I share the same definition of empathy as this guy completely. Empathy to me is more of a synonym to the compassion he talks about. There's a level of empathy that is essentially just understanding the other person. For example. I can empathize with others on this forum without living or feeling the exact same as them. It's also being able to relate to others lives. I can "put" myself in my wife's shoes to see things from her perspective without literally getting upset or mad just like she does. I can take my life experiences and empathize with someone on here living a different story but feeling the same way that I do. Here's the battle I see with empathy. It can sometimes be a broad brush approach to being pushed around or manipulated in my marriage. For example I can tell my wife she just needs to empathize with how I got feel and my desire for PMO. I think many people with issues use this as a way to not have to change themselves and shuts down important parts of a relationship like communication. Its a selfish use of demanding empathy to not have to do anything other than what they want. I deal with this with my wife. The requirement of empathy in a relationship can actually cause my needs, concerns, and thoughts on a subject to be disregarded because of the expectation that I be empathetic towards my spouse. What I really struggle with is when I try and bring something up that's important to me and get yelled down and silenced. In the moment I feel hurt and belittled causing resentment, we both do it to reach other. The challenge is to do what the video says at the end and use other important aspects of a marriage as well like compassion, respect, love, etc. And I think at the heart of it that's what he's really getting at.
Congratulations on your second kid brother! My wife just hit 25 weeks. Pregnancy has been a rollercoaster in the sex department for us. First trimester was a no go. Second trimester was some sex now as she's getting closer to the 3rd its been getting harder. I think she has some desire but shes getting so big that its logistically hard. Plus shes developing some hip and back pain. I've been relapsing a bit but still much better than I was before. Trying to stay true for lent. I see you have been doing well for the most part. Keep up the good work brother
I agree...i don't think his definition is even accurate. To empathize with someone is to have an understanding of their feelings or emotions, but it doesn't require an action as a result of that understanding. And, to say it's a bad thing is actually ridiculous, IMO. I think the vast majority of SO's would agree that, without empathy, healing from betrayal trauma will be very limited. I also don't think empathy has anything to do with manipulating someone else.
I really think the delivery is off on what he really means. Though I haven't read the book. To me it seems he means that empathy alone isn't good. That's not what he said but it's the logical explanation that makes sense to me if there was one. The way I see it is that relationships are complex and multifaceted. There's more to a relationship than just empathy, just as there is more to one than sex. Compassion is obviously a huge one. As is communication, trust, respect, and many different types of love. Said a different way simply being empathetic in a relationship isn't enough. I think it's a absolutely essential but so are many other parts. That's what I was trying to get at in my post above. I do think at times an unwritten rule of "you must" be empathetic in a relationship isn't necessarily good. Empathy is earned just like respect. For example my wife will essentially just tell me that she is unwilling to do something because it's just how she is and I'm expected to respect that. This may be handling finances, sleeping in on a weekday, how we discipline our child, making holiday plans, etc. In the end if I'm only able to be empathetic of my wife. I'm not able to be the father, husband, and man I naturally am. I think I mean if I must be empathetic how can I have an opinion that disagrees with my wife? Just like respect, this is something that must be mutual in a relationship. And I think this is why as I've said in posts above it can be such a struggle for us. It becomes a husband vs wife issue instead of an us vs the problem issue. I feel my wife and I both take advantage of this unwritten rule in our marriage so we don't have to deal with certain aspects of ourselves that need worked on. I think this is an absolute twisted way to look at what empathy actually is. It must be genuine or it isn't true empathy. I can say I'm very emotionally damaged by my wife when opening up to her about how I feel about certain things and it affects my mutual feelings towards her. I'm not expecting her to agree or even apologize if she was in the wrong. I've been called every name in the book, told my feelings are wrong, told I am a bad person, I've been called a narcissist, a tyrant, told that I don't love her because I didn't do xyz. I'm shut out and expected to do as she wants me to. All I've ever really wanted is to just be understood by my wife even when I'm way off base and she doesn't agree with me. Which to me is what empathy truly is to me.
Yes, I think there's more to a relationship, too, and actually I don't think there can ever truly be empathy without all of those things. I don't know that you can demand empathy from someone else and really get it, nor do I think it's earned. Instead, I think it's something that you can learn to do after you learn some other important things first. Empathizing with someone does not mean you have to agree with them at all, nor does it mean you have to give up all your own opinions. Empathy does not require you to give up or change anything about yourself. What it does require is the ability to understand and validate the other person's feelings without it sending you into defensive mode or a shame cycle. It's not an easy thing to do, and it's very difficult for addicts to learn (even impossible for some) while they're still stuck in the addiction. That's why it is often one of the last skills to develop in recovery. Having empathy for someone does not in any way excuse you from working on your own stuff, and, in fact, empathy is not likely to exist within a couple where there hasn't been significant individual progress for both people. I'm sorry that you're unable to express things to her without having it thrown back onto you. I actually understand very well how much that hurts...when you need to be able to communicate your thoughts and feelings about something really important to you, but when you try to, you're immediately shut down with anger, gaslighting, or (sometimes for me) stonewalling, and it's done with the intention of shutting you up and making you regret ever bringing up the subject.. Unfortunately, anyone who responds to you that way is incapable of showing you real empathy (at least at that time.) Yes! This is it! When I just reread that sentence, it reminded me of an article from Gottman Institute that I found awhile back about empathy. It does a much better job of explaining it than I do.
I think he would agree with you here. I haven't read his book but I did listen to an interview he did with Sam Harris and it was more in-depth than the video. Before the interview, I thought empathy was a good thing and I went away thinking maybe it wasn't. How we define a word is important. This is a common definition of empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. In the interview, he talks about a scenario where a girl is drowning in a river and asks what is the moral thing to A) try to understand and share her feelings as she drowns or B) jump in the river and save the girl. Pretty much everyone will say B is the moral thing to do. His book is called 'Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion' and I think the word 'rational' is the most important word in the title. Maybe we should forget the words 'empathy' or 'compassion' and just approach the pain of others in a more rational way where we focus our energy on finding solutions rather than relying on how we feel about the pain. I think the solution in regard to porn addiction is to stop consuming porn. Feeling bad that you look at porn and still consume it, is like feeling bad about the girl drowning and doing nothing to save her. In the past, I've heard stories of how unethical the porn industry is and feel bad for those who have suffered as a result but I still end up going back to consuming it. The question is why do I do it and maybe the answer is I had empathy rather than compassion. Maybe I was more reliant on my emotions rather than thinking rationally. IDK... I'm still trying to figure things out.
Yea idk I guess I don't fully agree. Empathy is a good thing. There are other good things as well. But that doesn't make empathy bad.
Yes this is what I mean. I think I need to reword what I meant by empathy must be earned. Maybe I should have said that empathy for someone else can be lost. It's hard to be empathetic of your abuser for example. You have to respect the person before you can truly try to understand them. I started a really long write up about Christmas holiday planning and it got lost. I may rewrite it sometime. It's something that really hurts me to this day. I'm not saying that my wife is always abusing me. But there are times she is. As well as manipulative. This has been a huge reason I've emotionally checked out and resorted to P. Ive been burned by this enough that I really haven't had the motivation to understand her. I think we both feel this way about each other. I wish I had a better thought out write up here. But I really think the key is communication, forgiveness and compassion. I wish I could get more of that from my wife, and I'm specifically not talking about PMO here. With forgiveness the cycle can be broken and we can work to better understand each other. I've felt I've been pretty successful in implementing this in our relationship recently but there are still breaks in the progress. I think back to Dr John's definition of trauma and how our bodies associate certain things from our past as danger. Something quite insignificant can trigger a response by the other and every bit of that trauma can come right back to the surface. It's important to identify this just like a trigger for P and teach your body that you are safe in that moment and use the thinking part of your brain instead of the reactionary fight or flight side. I think most struggling marriages are probably dealing with this. We can't allow these small things to derail improvements, and it can be very easy in these moments to overreact and think that nothing at all has changed when in fact it has. I'm still in the process of not allowing my body to react negatively to these traumas. My wife I think is coming around, but isn't fully engaged. She's often in denial that she could ever do something "wrong" or that would hurt others. She can be pretty self righteous in these ways. This is true. What I meant more by my previous post I think is that sometimes when I am pointing out my needs or something that I want to address my wife will play the "empathy" card and almost act like because of how she feels I must feel the same or I'm not being empathetic. Essentially it's been a way to end a conversation that she's uncomfortable with.
Thanks glad to hear you are doing well too. Yea I'm trying to not allow myself to get upset when sex is not frequent. I do have to say during my streaks things were better. I'm going to just focus on not having any expectations for sex during this time. I just can't do the same old anymore. So I'm going to try hard mode during this time.
Thank you for reaching out. I need to update my counter. I'm unfortunately failing hard mode but I am on day 22 of a no P streak. I've struggled with some temptation and have to admit MOing a few times just keeps me from really crashing and burning sometimes. I'm still working towards it. My times MOing are not in a fantasy world. I've been in a state of desire for intimacy with my wife at the time. I think hard mode causes a certain amount of stress that adds to my stress I already have in other ways. I need to get myself prepared for that to really make progress. All in all I feel I'm back on track in terms of P recovery. It's something that I'm not suffering from on a minute by minute basis. And honestly I don't feel many urges at all for P. Though my sex drive is still super high. I have a long term frustration that sex just will never be what I want it from my wife in terms of frequency and emotionally. Sigh IDK. She's a good person in a lot of ways. I've talked on here about how I think sex is something much deeper than looks and acts. It's emotional and spiritual. I feel that with my wife. Though I think I'm very much the giver in the relationship. She being an introvert isn't outward with emotional things very much. (Unless she's mad). There's just something missing there for me. When we are having sex it's great. It's the time between there's no love or intimacy that I sense from her. I think it truly is just we don't have very compatible love languages. I guess I'm just frustrated with the lack of intimacy in general. I know what I need to do. It's just from my end it seems so hopeless. I've always been a "fixer"... "if I do this then they will want to do that in return" etc. I guess I'm just so used to the disappointment part of what I do not being enough to have things I desire reciprocated. I'm kinda stuck in a circular mindset that I almost am dooming the Marriage either way. If I continue to live with this addiction it will destroy the marriage. But also if I remove all sexuali from my life I will not be happy and that too will destroy the marriage. In the end I know I need to do the right thing and hope and pray it gets better. Just recently my wife and I talked about the fact we are back to zero intimacy. She said she thought we were really on the right track and she was enjoying it and now that she's pregnant she's just not in the mood at all. I appreciated the conversation. I know I'm being irrational here. But it's just how I feel much of the time. I'm almost impatient for the change I want to see that I haven't had or done the work yet to get. The wife being pregnant now sure adds an element to it. I get it pregnancy hormones are rough. Though sex driven testosterone sure can be quite the animal itself! Haha. *I also have done some deep thinking on my own about some things. I'm realizing in my past I put a huge emphasis on winning the girl every guy wanted. It is what I thought would make me happy. In the end I think it made me ignore many things that I knew deel down were going to be issues for us. I love my wife. But I'm finding theres just some differences we have that aren't very easily put together.* I'm not saying I don't want to be with her because I do. It's just I'm sure seeing the issues that have been problems for our whole relationship pop up over and over and over. I hope we are able to find some common ground on some things.
Appreciate what you have. And try to solve or accept the issues that cannot be solved. Marriage is a lot of more than sex, which lasts a while in comparison to everything else.
This is exactly what I mean. Even though we don't have sex nearly enough for me it's the other aspects that really hurt me. To a large degree I see low sex frequency as a symptom of other issues in my marriage. Without going into long detail here I've wrongly circumvented the lack of intimacy my wife will show my using p to feel loved. It's a cheap substitute for feeling loved. Physical intimacy isn't my wife's live language at all. The sex is good when we have it. But it's often a bunch all at once and then months with none. What I really want is a marriage I can come home to and have peace. What I can acknowledge the hardest for me is doing the things to love my wife so that she in turn feels loved. I know I'm just as guilty in not loving her in her love language. Very often my wife is harsh and cruel and emotionally closed off which has made it hard for me to love her the way I think I'm supposed to. Maybe I just don't truly understand her. Resentment is something we have dealt with. Past trauma from her childhood I think does as well. In the end I'm here to end my p addiction regardless of anything else. I don't want to change who I am. Going through all this is challenging and has a lot of up and down moments.
