Opinion thread on the "friend-zone"

There's a lot of talk about the friend-zone in this neck of the woods, so I thought I'd just throw in my two cents on the matter. First of all, I should mention where I'm coming from, so that there's no doubts about my intentions or my biases: I'm not a feminist. I'm not a part of "the left". I'm not a "white knight". I'm just a guy with my own set of experiences and subjective opinions. I'm not approaching this with the intent of pushing a particular political, social, or philosophical agenda. The purpose of this thread is to explore the topic and to (hopefully) help people who feel like they are stuck in "the friend-zone". I'm a little annoyed that I have to make that sort of disclaimer, but the last thing I want is for this valuable discussion to degenerate into a flame war about identity politics.

With that out of the way, here we go:

First, some terminology, so I know we're all talking about the same thing: The friend-zone, as I understand it, is a state in which a man wants to have sex with a woman, but she doesn't want to have that sort of relationship with him (often characterized by her saying she wants to remain "just friends"). Pretty simple.

Now, for my opinion on it: The friend-zone is a situation that men put themselves in. That is, it's a preventable situation, but the only way to prevent it is for men to adjust their attitudes and behaviors surrounding sex. In order to really explain what I mean, I need to go into some more detail, so I'll do that now. Here are the traits that I believe best characterize the sort of men who end up in the friend-zone.

1. A sense of entitlement about sex. Men who believe there are certain conditions under which a woman is obligated to have sex with him will undoubtedly become frustrated when, even after meeting those conditions, their desires are not satisfied. The conditions these men tend to believe are enough to guarantee them sexual favors vary, but some more common ones are buying things for her, spending time with her, listening to her talk about her problems, or being physically attractive. Additionally, when a man believes that there are certain conditions under which a woman is obligated to have sex with him, he has to place the blame somewhere when he meets those conditions and still doesn't end up getting what he wants. Some friend-zoned men will blame the woman herself: "she only dates assholes" or "she was just leading me on". Others will blame some coincidental fact about themselves: "I'm unattractive" or "I'm an incel". Others will blame society or some ideology: "I didn't get what I want because feminism has poisoned the minds of women" or "dating is so different these days".
   
2. Vague or unclear intentions. Men who hide their true intentions about sex from women are often frustrated when she doesn't get the message. I've seen sob-story after sob-story of men who got friend-zoned, and almost all of them involve hiding of true intentions. I've heard men say things like "it was going really well, but I wanted to just take things slow" or "I asked her out on a date, but I didn't really use the word 'date'". They wait for the perfect moment to make their intentions clear (I think the reason for this is to avoid the risk of being rejected), but they end up frustrated when it never comes up.
3. Not being authentic. Women really do like nice guys. But it's not just women, it's everybody. Everybody likes nice guys. Everybody likes nice people. Being nice is... well... nice! The problem with these men who get friend-zoned is that they are only nice to a woman until they no longer believe there is any chance they could have sex with her. In other words, guys who are friend-zoned are often "nice", but it's not authentic niceness. It's conditional niceness. It's niceness that comes with a price: sex.
4. Black-and-white reasoning around sex and women. Guys who end up in the friend-zone often have a hard time seeing the full spectrum of possibility when it comes to women. They tend to believe there's no reason to pursue a relationship with a woman at all unless she's willing to have sex. They're either having sex with her, or they don't want anything to do with her. There's no middle ground. They tend to equate having anything other than a sexual relationship with a woman as a complete waste of time.

These are just my observations and, fortunately, I think all of them are preventable. In most of these cases, it just takes a little bit of an attitude adjustment and some practice. Here are my suggestions for addressing each of these issues:

1. Give up your entitlement over sex. Nobody is obligated to have sex with you under any circumstances. It doesn't matter how much time you've spent with a person, it doesn't matter how much money you've spent on that person, it doesn't matter if you were kind, empathetic, and vulnerable. Nobody owes you sex. If you're having trouble with this one, try to imagine what it would be like if one of your best guy friends started to become really frustrated with you because you refused to have sex with him. Then, try to imagine that he says you were just "leading him on" for all these years of friendship, pinning the blame on you.
2. Practice making your intentions clear. If you want something more out of a relationship with a woman, tell her as soon as you feel that way about her. Don't dilly-dally. Don't wait for the perfect moment where you're absolutely certain she'll accept your proposal. There is no such perfect moment. Sometimes, you ask out a girl and she rejects you. That's life. Rejection is not a bad thing. It makes you stronger and helps you grow. You need rejection in your life to give the time that she accepts your proposal substance. If every woman accepted every sexual advance you ever made, then what's the difference between a woman and a sex doll? The longer you hide your intentions, the more painful it will be if she rejects you when you finally spill the beans.
3. Just be yourself, man. Don't act a certain way because you believe that acting that way will win you sexual favor. Act how you want to act. Be yourself for its own sake. You don't want a woman to have sex with you because you did the right actions at the right time and because you said the right things at the right moments. You want her to have sex with you because she really likes you for who you are. I know this one is particularly difficult as a man in the western world these days. We're taught from a very young age to hide our emotions from other people. We're taught that showing extreme emotion, like crying or elation, is a sign of weakness. We're taught that the most successful people are the ones who are cool, calm, and reserved at all times. Sometimes, it feels like the only place in which it's considered normal for a man to be weak, soft, and vulnerable is in the bedroom, which is probably a part of what makes the modern man so obsessed with sex. Try to break those boundaries down. You'll discover there's a whole realm of possibility out there if you just be yourself.
4. Have all sorts of relationships with women. By all means, continue dating, flirting, and pursuing sexual relationships with women. That's healthy and normal. However, consider also pursuing other types of relationships with women at the same time. If you're a student, meet women in study groups just to work on schoolwork together (with no intention of having sex). Meet your female neighbors. Go to events and meetups that are in line with your interests and talk to the women who share those same interests. Make friends with all sorts of women and get to know what they're like when you're not trying to get in their pants. You're not wasting your time just because you're not taking her to the bedroom. This isn't some pick-up-artist advice or any bullshit like that. Having platonic relationships with women isn't going to "get you laid more" or anything like that. It's just going to give you some perspective, and maybe help you feel less frustrated about society, women, yourself, and everything else.

Again, this is all just my opinion, and my intention here is to start a discussion. I'm not framing anything that I'm saying as fact. It doesn't really mean anything without the perspective of other people. So, I'm looking forward to seeing all the responses people have to this thread. I'm really sticking my neck out there with this one, and I imagine I might get some flame for this post, but I think it's worth it, and I won't take anything personally.

 

I think that's the experience for a lot of people, but some never get that experience when they're young for one reason or another. I understand that perspective, even though it hasn't been my experience in life.

Luckily (or unluckily, depending on your perspective), I've had all sorts of female friends my entire life. Even way back in primary school I always preferred hanging out with the girls during recess over the boys. I think that helped me avoid a lot of the frustrations that some men feel when they start dating. It was a tradeoff, though. I remember getting bullied for hanging out with girls during recess. The bullying evolved over time, and once everyone started hitting puberty the bullying changed from "it's weird that you hang out with girls" to "you must be gay because you hang out with girls". Rough times.

I'm only mentioning all of this because I think all of those experiences shaped me into who I am right now. Maybe that helps to understand about me, maybe not. I thought it was worth sharing, though.

 

Whenever you finally get around to reading my OP, I think you'll find that one of my points is that there's nothing wrong with being friends with women. It's not a loss or a disadvantage in your life. In fact, I encourage you to make friends with all sorts of women. It's not advice I'm giving you because I think it will get you laid or anything like that. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I think that you should do it because it will give you some perspective and a sense of balance in your life.

 

Yeah, I think this is an important point. Kind of touches on what I was saying about authenticity. Being nice (or being a friend) is all well and good, but simply acting nice (or acting like someone's friend) when you secretly want something else is just dishonest towards yourself and those around you.

 

Oh yeah, this speaks right to me. Especially that last note about not having a father who showed me what actual affection looks like. My father was abusive (both to my mother and to me and my siblings). I learned about affection and having loving relationships with women pretty much on my own.

Yeah, I think all of that goes with what I was saying, and I think this is what I was talking about when I was talking about entitlement to sex. Having an expectation of sex = feeling entitled to sex in my mind.

Yeah, I agree with you there. I don't think I ever suggested that men of night not strive to be both vulnerable and strong, and I certainly don't believe that the two are mutually exclusive. In fact, I think being vulnerable and actually expressing your emotions honestly can take a lot of strength. I also agree with the sentiment that one can go off the deep end and become a slave or puppet for their emotions. I don't think that vulnerability is inherently good, or that it's always the right decision to make. I think my point was more that being able to be vulnerable and to express emotions freely is a skill that a lot of men lack, and that many of us could use a bit more of that in our lives.

 

I didn't watch the video because I didn't really want to. I don't really want to invest the time haha